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The nitty gritty

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:57 pm
by Sandina

I've begun a process of repentance but I'm getting stuck. Perhaps someone has some insight. Below is a snippet of the outline for the Forgiveness and Repentance Concepts talk given in the assistance groups 2014. I've numbered the points myself to help with my question.
How do I repent?

1. First emotionally recognize, experience & feel ALL of the addictions and façade which we or others
created to avoid our own hurt

2. Then emotionally experience & feel ALL of the damage we did to others or ourselves while in our
addictions and façade

3. Then emotionally experience & feel ALL the emotions associated with the reasons why we made the
choice to hurt others or ourselves rather than feel our own original hurt

4. Then recognize & emotionally experience & feel all of the feelings of hurt which we created in others
& ourselves due to our choices to avoid our own original hurt

5. Then we need to follow the forgiveness process! Forgiveness cannot be avoided!

This is a reversal of the process of the hurt we chose to create in others or ourselves!
My question is, what is the difference between point 2 and point 4? And isn't step 3 the actual forgiveness part where we release the causal emotions that made us take that action? Perhaps I'm getting too much into the nitty gritty of it.

So far for me, I've recognized the facade/addictions that caused me to act unlovingly. I've emotionally felt the remorse of what I've done, but now Im stuck. I've asked God to show me why I acted the way that I did, but Im also suspicious of myself because I don't want to quickly skip to the next part, perhaps I need to feel more fully the deep truth of how much damage my actions caused. I'm also hesitant to stay there in case I'm just stalling and maybe self punishing by making myself go back again to how badly I've treated someone (although I don't think I'm self punishing).

Anyone been through this process and have some suggestions?

Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:56 am
by Elvira
Hi Sandina,
nice to meet you. Those are really good questions and I've had to really think about it, which means it is not in my heart so I'm speculating the same as you, not giving any answers. I'm also interested to know what other people might have to say. I don't think I have fully experienced any hurt down to a causal level, I also usually hit a wall at point three and spend a lot of time in compensation or sometimes more accurately I revert to my addiction of self punishment.

For me 'All' is a huge word in this context, and it is an ongoing process which takes time. The way I see it and have experienced it is that there are strands of addiction and hurt which are also interlinked so that you will go back and forward between the points. The difference between point two and four does feel like a fine distinction, what it means to me at this point is that when you hurt someone it has many impacts on their their life which is the damage you need to feel. Feeling their hurt and how you made them feel is another level because how could you feel the hurt you have caused if you have not been willing to feel your own hurt. To be honest I'm confused now because I have experienced the distinction without feeling all my own hurt but I think maybe what happens is that a I feel some of my hurt which helps me to feel some of the hurt I have caused, then feel a bit more hurt etc, but not really the full extent. Points one to four seem like the forgiveness process to me so I don't know what point five means either.

All my best

Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:48 pm
by Sandina
Hi Elvira,

It's really nice to meet you, I've seen you in some videos and I find your questions really beneficial, so thank you for that.

I like what you said about the distinction between feeling the damage caused and feeling the hurt caused. Although, I am still confused. I think it's true what you said about having to go back and forth between points and I think I may have trouble with the concept that this stuff isn't linear (I like control so I need things to be linear all the time).

I actually had a dream regarding this issue that showed me Im still projecting demands so that shows me I'm still in the addiction. I think I'm swaying between 1 and 2 but am not allowing myself to fully engage the process with humility. That makes me sad because this issue has caused so much pain in myself and in the person I've damaged. I feel frustrated that I'm working against my soul desire to remain unloving.

Thanks again for your feedback.


Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:32 pm
by Anita
Hi Sandina and Elvira,

A little on what I have experienced so far with this topic. I have not gone through the
whole process yet myself, and I feel that I have not released any causal emotions yet either.

But anyway this is my conclusion so far.
Point 5.
Forgiveness process, is to actually feel my own hurt. Feel what was done to me.

1-4 is to feel my avoidance of feeling my own pain and hurt.

I myself are stuck in 3 feeling that I deserved to be hurt as a child. And that I can not
cope with feeling that hurt.

I love Repentance and Forgiveness. It is such a beautiful law and when I truly
engage myself in it, I come closer to God.


Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:15 pm
by Anita
But anyway this is my conclusion so far.
Point 5.
Forgiveness process, is to actually feel my own hurt. Feel what was done to me.
Conclusion was not the right word really.
I'd like to say this is what I have found.

Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:57 am
by Mary
Hi guys,

(As a caveat to this response - Jesus wrote the material that you are referencing, though I was a part of that creation process and am fairly confident of what he is referring to I have not checked this post with him. I am also at this stage in my progression working these steps for myself. I will be a lot clearer once my relationship with God has once again developed. However I feel I can clarify at least your first question Sandina and explain a little of why Step 2 is so important).

In the outline that you referenced step 2 refers to developing an emotional desire to understand the full extent of the damage that was done to ourselves and others while acting in our sin. It is like desiring to gain the full picture of just how many ways the unloving act/emotion/relationship impacted on myself, others and the environment. At this stage you may not yet be fully willing to experience all of the hurt that you caused to others but you are opening emotionally to just how damaging your actions were. You want to awaken to the sin and the broad reach of its impact.

The key with this process is to understand the concepts Jesus was attempting to teach in giving you the steps (and not get too caught up in 'ticking the boxes' for each step and thinking you are done with it - because as you develop sincerity, humility and sensitivity you WILL move back and forth through various 'steps' if you are sincere about working through the repentance process).

For example, many of us want to minimise just how much there is for us to awaken to in steps 1 & 2. We 'see' a few things intellectually and then want to rush onto to the later steps and say we have 'repented'. When this happens it an attempt to avoid many feelings and is often an addiction in itself. And it is impossible to move onto the latter steps if you haven't first cultivated the desire to emotionally become aware of the damage you have done.

The key thing is cultivating this desire to feel and know the damage. It is unlikely that you will be sensitive and aware of it ALL in the beginning but that desire to be emotionally aware is key to involving God and being able to release any causal emotion.

As you sincerely work through repentance you may move back through the steps as you become more sensitive and thus become more aware of further ways that your sin was damaging. At that point you may realise that there is more for you to look at in terms of your motivations, your personal hurt that you were avoiding or justifying and so you go back to points 1, 2, and 3 all over again.

If we haven't yet developed the sincere desire to see and feel the full extent of the harm in our actions, nor have we developed the sincere desire to never repeat these actions because there is still some facade/addiction/anger based belief that we are justifying, then repentance is not yet sincere or possible. This is why Jesus stressed these first two steps in the process of repentance.

Many people fool themselves into believing that they have repented when actually they haven't even yet cultivated the desires to see their sin as sin or to cease justifying their sin. These blocks mean that they are not emotionally open to becoming aware of the impact that their sin has had on everything and everyone around them (the 'damage' that Jesus refers to in the document).

The last thing to say is that forgiveness and repentance are intertwined. Don't get too caught up in trying to do them separately. Though I haven't experienced it again yet in this life, I have a memory of the surrendered state with God in which repentance and forgiveness come about concurrently, powerfully and without too much intellectual analysis.

I know that Jesus is always attempting in everything he creates to inspire us to THAT state with God and then all the 'steps' won't matter too much. In reality they are just tools to help open us up to God (and to not kid ourselves in our facade that we are doing something we aren't yet willfully engaged in).

I hope that helps.


Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:33 am
by Matt Mondragon

It a great idea to journal everything you feel in these moments so that the way you process the sin you’ve caused others has been documented before and throughout—so you can go back to it, expand on it, refine it and even categorize information regarding your personal blocks (physical addictions, emotional addiction, etc.), Male/female addictions/triggers, potential causal emotions identified, causal, etc. I like to think of it as doing research, where my soul is what I’m investigating, and God along with Jesus, Mary and our divine guides are our scholarly sources.

It might be best to get other opinions on the matter, but what’s really gonna help is getting a better grasp on your soul and its condition so you can connect with God—less intellect and more soul experience. Pray and pray and pray. Here goes:
Sandina wrote:2. Then emotionally experience & feel ALL of the damage we did to others or ourselves while in our
addictions and façade
Here are some things that come to mind that I use that you might find helpful to consider—and attempt to feel as you go:

You basically chose to hurt others rather than work out the reasons your pain was driving you to do so. You wanted to hurt them. You didn’t want to take responsibility before or during those moments you caused harm to that person. You knew that you were harming them but chose to do it anyways. You used substances, people, created events, etc. to help you avoid addressing the injuries in yourself that caused you to harm people that God loves just like you. Up until this point, you haven’t really wanted to take responsibility for the choices you made that caused them harm—which they’ll eventually have to forgive you for. The harm that you caused them may have motivated them to sin further and harm others. You are contributing to spreading sin and the degradation of the souls of others. If you didn’t harm them it’s possible they wouldn’t have caused as much suffering in others. They will suffer the results of your sin against them until they connect with their hurt self and make the effort to forgive you. By not releasing sin, you cannot love yourself. You haven’t loved yourself while you have a desire to harm others. If you truly loved yourself you would work on releasing sin every chance you get. The greater the desire to release sin, the greater love for oneself. All of the pain you have in your soul is a measurement for how much you love yourself. When you’re harming others you don’t care about the condition of your soul. Etc.

Investigating these further, developing your own, and keeping a record for future use may help to get the repentance process rolling with future desire.
Sandina wrote:3. Then emotionally experience & feel ALL the emotions associated with the reasons why we made the
choice to hurt others or ourselves rather than feel our own original hurt
Here are some questions that hopefully strike a chord within regarding our reasoning:

First and foremost, is my heart open? How open? What do I want from this person that I’ve harmed? Should they have to give me what I want? What did it feel like when I wanted to hurt them because I wasn’t getting what I wanted? Did it feel good to hurt them? Did it feel good after? What if everyone felt good about hurting me after? Am I punishing myself, or making a real effort to work through this issue? Am I angry about the actions they took? Am I afraid of what would have happen if I didn’t violate them? Am I afraid of the actions they took and may take in the future? Am I totally over people taking these sorts of actions? How badly do I want to control certain people? Am I ashamed of them and the actions they took? Embarrassed? Am I judging them? Am I judging myself for having these feelings that must be felt? What judgments do I have of them? Am I aware that I still project these judgments at them? Am I aware that I will continue to project these judgments at them until I sort out this issue? Am I okay with them feeling this pain I’d like to have towards them? Do they have any idea that the way I feel about them effects the way they currently feel about me? Do they have any idea that the way I feel about them may be causing them to feel the same way about themselves? Am I being selfish here? Was I afraid with what may have happened had I not stepped in and took action? Do I still feel my actions were justified? Do I feel like I need to be angry still? What’s this anger about? How do I feel about anger in myself? How do I feel about anger in others? Am I okay with releasing anger? How am I using this anger? Do I want to protect myself with this anger? Do I want to keep people at a distance with this anger? How do I start again? Am I making any progress wanting to hold on to this anger? Do I want to feel the actual emotion driving my desire to remain angry? Can God help? Should God help? Is there a demand coming out of me towards God to help? Am I desperate for God? Am I angry God isn’t making it clear? Why is this process so difficult? Is it really worth going through all of this just to repent this one sin I’ve committed? Do I feel helpless, or am I being arrogant? Lazy? Untrusting? Would I rather have someone else do the work for me? Am I judging myself for feeling this way? Can I just feel these feelings without judging myself? Is this the facade? Do I prefer the facade? What is the actual feeling I want to avoid? Do I feel ashamed about something? How badly do I care about the judgments of others towards me as I practice finding an effective form of humility? etc.
Sandina wrote:4. Then recognize & emotionally experience & feel all of the feelings of hurt which we created in others
& ourselves due to our choices to avoid our own original hurt
This phase should serve us in getting us closer to the actual feelings of repentance:

What emotions hit me at my core in part 3? There are very uncomfortable emotions that came up in part 3 of this experiment, am I open to feeling every single one of these emotion that came up? Which ones do I not want to feel, and what thought, memory, person, event, etc. triggered these horrible feelings. What emotions were most difficult for me to feel regarding what I created in the person I harmed? What emotions were most difficult for me to feel regarding what I created in myself? Careful not to judge these emotions—which is facade.

Part 3 was a process where we were able to recognize all of the emotions associated with our preference to sin over taking responsibility over what we’re creating, and part 4 is the process where we’ve discovered the emotions we don’t want to feel and experiment with feeling those. In other words, we’ve developed a pretty good idea at this point what our blocks are—the emotions we prefer over others—and we’re now aware of the feelings we want to avoid. As we go into the feelings we want to avoid, our blocks will most likely interfere. Dealing with the blocks is recognizing the addictions, not giving them to ourselves, and feeling how badly it feels to not give ourselves these things (thanks Jesus). Even in repentance and forgiveness we will be dealing with addictions.

In my experience, to get to the cause of why you want to harm others, you’re gonna have to make some attempts to forgive the people who’ve harmed you—the childhood causal emotions you want to avoid. Repentance is a great way of identifying these emotions and identifying the people who chose to degrade your condition in the past—also a segue to causal (childhood) damage.

Hope this helps, it is quite a web. God is always available when we’re truthful about the damage we’ve caused.

Writing this helped me a lot by the way!


Re: The nitty gritty

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:51 pm
by Sandina
Hi Mary,

Thank you for taking the time to provide your input, it is such a gift.

You've helped me narrow my focus in this process. I don't believe I want to feel the full extent of my sin. I haven't fully "awakened" to my sin (love that expression). As a result, I want to rush through to the next "steps".

Also, thank you for your post regarding our blocks to repentance, there is so much valuable information there.

I have a lot of things to reflect on now!

With gratitude,